is this site not working anymore?
Jeff Feinman VMD, CVH — Weston, Connecticut — Call: 203.222.7979
Well I tried to post a longer question and it just thought I was spam and didn't even give me a test to see if I was human. It just decided I was spam after I tried to post the question and that was it. It maybe fine at your end but at my end it is a big fail and your response to this tells me you haven't a clue nor do you care. Thanks anyway.
Look, Turnip, if you have a question, try again and give us a chance. I don't see anything here that indicates we don't care; actually, we do, and we're curious, and eager to help if we can.
Dr. Elizabeth Hodgkins DVM wrote a book on how to transition insulin dependent cats off of insulin through diet. She has a protocol that works. In interviews she has said that the same can be true for dogs. Has anyone come up with a protocol for dogs yet and published this and do you have link?
Is it safe to feed diabetic dogs raw meat? Is 2% of body weight sufficient amount to feed dog meat? Is it true that you need to have a 1:1 ratio of bones to meat for dogs? Are purines in chicken livers more problematic for diabetic dogs when choosing more nutrient packed organ meats? I use Humulin N on my dog and is there a better insulin to transition him off of insulin that can be bought over the counter?
Have you ever transitioned an insulin dependent dog off of insulin through diet?
As Dr. Hodgkins explains, diabetes is largely diet-induced, actually, as proper pancreatic function depends on biologically appropriate food. It's no wonder that diabetes develops given the carb-heavy, cooked, denatured foods we are sold by manufacturers and the vets they support.
Switching both cats and dogs to raw encourages normal levels, and they can be weaned off supplemental insulin. I have observed this numerous times, anecdotally. This should be carefully supervised by your sympathetic vet, of course. Using raw foods obviates the need for a lot of tweaking, as a raw diet modeled after whole prey supplies exactly the sort of medium-high protein, low carb, and appropriate fiber and water content, as well as possessing all the necessary enzymes for efficient utilization. It's not rocket science, and I see no need for concern about purines in a varied diet.
No, dogs should never be fed bone in anything like 1:1! The goal is to emulate natural prey, in which bone content is closer to 10%, depending on the size of the animal and the amount of bone actually consumed. The same is true of organs: 10% of the total diet, including all obtainable organs but mainly liver, is a good approximation to natural prey.
The amount of food given will vary with the weight, condition, activity, and individual nature of your animals: some are "easy keepers" while others burn everything in sight and ask for more. We generally recommend starting with 2-3% of desired adult weight, and adjusting over time to your dog's ideal weight.
Cats are another story, as they must never be fasted while changing them over to a raw diet. Cats are notoriously picky ad stubborn, and some time and subterfuge, with lots of patience, will often be obligatory. I recommend you search out and join the two huge rawfeeding lists on Yahoogroups, Rawfeeding and RawChat, and also the RawChat page on FaceBook. There will be many links to comprehensive pages on how to get started and with FAQs for your concerns. Or ask here!
ginny, not a vet
The spam filters are once again at it. I tried earlier today to post again and once again it just thought I was spam. Lots of places have a way to test if it is spam and will ask a question or have to type out letters to prove you are not spam.
Is there any research that proves immune compromised diabetic dogs in fact can eat raw meat without problems with bacteria like ecoli or salmonella? I have seen so many saying you can and so many saying you can't. Is there any publications to cite that proves one way or the other? Let science have the final word on this. I did go to those sites and looked at FAQ but it was not addressed.
If you have actually seen this done is there any research to site on this protocol for transitioning dogs off of insulin? What kind of insulin did they use? How long did it take? A few out there say they have heard or seen this but not one person has actually explained a case study what so ever. Is this just for specific cases?
I need some documentation to take to the vet to convince him to work with me on this. He is a very nice guy but doesn't get this Paleo type approach for dogs, I tried already. He insisted I use diabetic dog food for the best results.
I submitted a post several days ago, but it has gotten itself deleted. It would seem your doctor lacks any sort of pioneering spirit. It's simple enough to monitor insulin, after all.
I don't think you will see vet research on this matter, because it's a given that if they are open to raw feeding, they will have seen diabetic dogs doing well on the diet. Any vet open to raw feeding will also realize that poor diet is the biggest immunosuppressive maintaining factor, along with vaccine damage. Any vet NOT realizing the importance of diet will remain uncurious about its possibilities.
If you want NOT to attempt to change over your dog without scientific research, you will have a long wait for it. But you could also be part of that research, working with a helpful vet and blazing a trail that others in your position can follow. The process is slow enough that you certainly could avoid disasters such as too rapid blood sugar changes.
Your vet may insist, but this is your dog, whose health ultimately depends on you and your choices. I'd explain that, and your reasoning, to your vet. Perhaps you can awaken his curiosity. If not, it may be time to move on, no matter how "nice" he is.
Thanks for your input "Turnip". As Ginny pointed out in her excellent posts, you will have a very long wait for any *published* research. Most natural vet care research nowadays is on a case by case basis. Unfortunately, this "anecdotal" evidence is typically not well-received by academia (tho it is still scientific by definition). Of course, this is what those of us with sick pets care most about.
You need to weigh all of the evidence provided by all sources to decide on treatment options. Hopefully you have built a strong vet care team.
Regarding spam, this board often considers any previously formatted text to be spam. I'm so sorry that you have had problems. I know how frustrating this can be.
Good luck. Please let us know what you find during your further explorations.
Concerning your questions on "raw meat without problems with bacteria like ecoli or salmonella?" I feed my cats raw organic chicken and grass fed beef. I do about a 5-minute soak in cold water and put in about 15 drops of Grapefruit Seed Extract to help disinfect the meat. You can also use Raw apple cider vinegar. I then cut up the meat into small, but not too small pieces, put in a glass jar and freeze what I will not use immediately. I also read that the freezing also kills off any concerning bacteria.
Hope this helps and that you are still here,
I know how well-intentioned you are, and this really seems like a bit of literal overkill. All carnivores - well, all organisms - have a balance of bacteria in their guts, of which those that we like to think are inimical are part. Killing things in a natural diet erodes the whole purpose of feeding raw - we need and can handle ALL those bugs. E. coli and salmonella are common to many species, hanging out in the gut without causing problems. Symptoms of losing the ongoing shuffling for balance will only show up in severely compromised animals, and they will have lots more issues than a bug or two in the food - illness is always about the terrain, and not about the provocateur.
Your cats need all the enzymes and bacteria in their food! Don't cheat them, now that you have committed to giving them the most healthful diet possible. Road kill, rats, mice, gophers, and self-grooming, for instance, all help spread the bacterial biomass around too, so no need to try to sterilize this one aspect of contact.